These notes were taken during one of our Climate Conversations. They reflect the ideas and feelings of the participants on the day. They’re a record of our feelings and thinking as we explore topics relevant to coping and changing in the face of the climate crisis. As a result, they won’t always be factually accurate and aren’t intended to be relied on as a source of information.
During the week we met for this conversation the UK Labour government had announced that growth was its top priority. The announcements of its plans implied that environmental protection was an impediment to growth and that growth would come first. It was a good time for this particular conversation.
Useful definitions
The economy includes the activities involved in making things, delivering services, getting them to the people who want or need them, and the consumption of those goods and services. In other words, it’s a social system of production, distribution and consumption.
Economic growth happens when more things are made and more services are provided.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is calculated by calculating the value of all the goods and services in a country and dividing that value by the number of people in the population. This gives an average of the amount of value produced per person. When GDP goes up, the economy grows. When it goes down, the economy shrinks.
Standard of living is the amount of goods and services a person can afford.
Quality of life includes access to essential goods and services, but also other things like health, education, security, well-being and happiness.
What are we hoping to get from this conversation?
“Why does the economy need to grow?”
- Conflict with net zero
- Steady-state economy?
- Quality of life?
“I need the understanding for debates between environmentalists and developers. For example the arguments around Heathrow”.
“Know your enemy”.
“To decide if it’s good or bad”.
“Growth is linked to capitalism. The more you understand about it the more you can see its bollocks”.
“There are problems with using GDP to measure how a country is doing”.
“You need to understand the system to change it”.
“Things can be done differently”.
“Growth is linked to environmental problems.
“What if a country wanted to give up growth? Would it be allowed to do that?”.
Arguments in favour of economic growth and our responses
Economic growth is necessary to maintain living standards in a growing population (BBC)
“Other kinds of value are ignored”.
“It made me think of recent events in LA, Spain and India. Even people who had a great standard of living weren’t protected from disaster.”
Higher wages, employment and lower prices keep voters happy.
“Some of these things conflict with each other. Don’t higher wages mean higher prices?”.
“It’s so short-termist”.
“Companies can lobby politicians for favourable policies deregulation and tax breaks by arguing it’ll create growth”.
Growth allows us to relieve poverty without making the rich poorer (BBC).
I think it’s fair to say we were unimpressed with this one!
“The rich will always want more”.
“Keeping your status depends on inequality. Other people have to be less well-off”.
We need growth to meet our wants and aspirations (BBC).
“Our wants and aspirations are manufactured by capitalism”.
“Expectations have changed over time”.
Each generation can be better off than their parents (The Atlantic).
“We’re at a turning point. People now expect things to be worse.”
“Do people still believe this?”
“I fear the far-right will exploit people’s disappointment and dissatisfaction.”
Economic growth gives more people access to more goods and services (Our World In Data)
“This assumes that the more stuff you have the better. I’m not convinced”.
“The benefit tails off and then having more stuff gets counter-productive after a certain point”.
Economic growth is necessary to reduce global poverty (Our World In Data).
“I’m not convinced redistribution wouldn’t work, or at least do a lot”.
“Is it possible to grow enough to eliminate global poverty with finite resources?”
“The climate crisis will increase poverty”.
“I don’t think growth is not enough on its own. We need to get the right things to people who need them.”
Resources to learn more about economic growth and steady-state economics.
Recommendations from people in the group.
Books:
- Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World by Jason Hickel
- Doughnut Economics by Kate Raworth
- Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber
Groups and websites:
- Steady State Manchester
- “Why Do We Need Economic Growth?” BBC News Magazine, October 16, 2008.
- “Why Does Economic Growth Matter?” Bank of England, May 19, 2020.
The sources I used to put together my Conversation Guide
Contains affiliate links.
- BBC. “Why Do We Need Economic Growth?” BBC News Magazine, October 16, 2008.
- Bank of England. “Why Does Economic Growth Matter?” Bank of England, May 19, 2020.
- Chang, Ha-Joon. Economics: The Users Guide. 2014.
- Kitshtainy, Nish. A Little History of Economics. 2017.
- Soper, Kate. Post-Growth Living: For an Alternative Hedonism. Paperback edition. London New York: Verso, 2023.
- Semuels, Alana. “Does the Economy Really Need to Keep Growing Quite So Much?” The Atlantic, November 4, 2016.
- Roser, Max. “The Economies That Are Home to the Poorest Billions of People Need to Grow If We Want Global Poverty to Decline Substantially.” Our World in Data, February 22, 2021.
- Roser, Max. “How Much Economic Growth Is Necessary to Reduce Global Poverty Substantially?” Our World in Data, March 15, 2021.
- Roser, Max. “What Is Economic Growth? And Why Is It so Important?” Our World in Data, May 13, 2021.